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Hi M
In my experience M patterns can change, he will change his pattern to ‘fit’ what is the beginning of your new found learning, his ways of gaining enablement will become more crafty, the lies get bigger, the debts get bigger, the addiction becomes more sneaky and it gets stronger.
I guess no – one knows whether he has gambled or not but I can tell you quite sincerely that the scenarios you describe along with his behaviour could just as easily have described my ex partners antics – almost text book or should I say “The Guinness Book of Lies and manipulation”
He will be picking up on small changes in you, whether or not you recognise that you are getting stronger or not, he will and his addiction will begin to feel a tad threatened by that ! hence the possible changes in patterns – if we can see the changes in you, why wouldn’t he.
In one of your earlier posts you mention your need to be loved by and exchange love with another person, although you don’t say specifically him. I am wondering whether or not this is what holds you within such a destructive relaitionship. Is the fear of being alone more daunting than continuing with this situation? Do you enable because maybe you fear he will reject you if you don’t? The reason I mention these things is not that I am analysing you as such but that they were issues that I had to face within myself, once I was able to shift my focus from why is he doing xy and Z to why am I putting up with it, things truly began to change, all be it still slowly.
what do you think he would do if you flatly refuse to give him any money – end the relaitionship? because if he did what would you lose ?
You are getting stronger and sooner or later you will put it all into practice – when you are ready and in your own time
Jenny
Good to hear from you. I didn’t read anything that should make you unpopular ! in fact I remember one of the first replies I ever had on this forum many years ago in which I was told to “run like hell and never look back ” no mention of supporting from the side lines etc – do I wish I’d listened? well yes I do, I would have saved myself and my children a lot of grief and financial difficulties.
I still believe that we all have to go through our own process to come to the right conclusions, at the right time for us and I know I now suffer from impatience and intolerance of addiction in general whereas far from “running like hell” I personally limped through my own journey, probably looking like some bizarre example of how to lose a three legged race !!! I too feel like I would love to say “run like hell to people ”
I have no contact with my CG what so ever if I can help it, not because I hate him ( which I don’t) or I wouldn’t like to be amicable but because I still fear/respect the addiction and its ability to manipulate any situation / conversation it gets its grubby little paws on.
It is interesting how when we get in a ‘normal’ environment our own situation just seems to become more and more strange and bizarre and as you say when we are in the middle of it all despite what others say it is very difficult to truly see what is going on.
I think it is only recently that I truly understood what looking after me meant and often remind myself to do exactly that.
That’s what I would say to you Jilly – keep looking after you at every opportunity, recovery doesn’t end with the relaitionship – keep working at it and things can only get better.Jenny xxx
Sorry to hear of your recent news and interested in your views of enablement or reading on the subject I should say. In a previous post you talk about not enabling, not being used as a punishment, which I fully agree with, not enabling someone really is an act of kindness, after all why would we want to give the person we love the continuing means to further damage themselves ?
You also mention the clear necessity for self care and protection emotionally and financially which again I entirely agree with you. It might be worth reflecting on these points again when the dust has settled eg. paying off gambling debts = enablement, not bringing the thing he wants most from mexico = punishment. Self care meaning financially protect yourself by not paying off debt etc etc.
I understand how you may be concerned about his safety with his debts etc., but these are the choices that he is making and the consequences of which he may have to suffer or at least believe he will have to suffer if he continues to make these bad choices. He currently has no reason to stop.
Vera’s post gave you some insight and having read loads of accounts of the lives of people writing on My Journal as well as my own experience I’m afraid I have yet to read about a successful recovery whilst enablement is still available.
I too enabled for several years to both my own detriment and that of my ex partner
Jenny
One of the worst things for me was the ability of this addiction to make us over think, perfectly natural under the circumstances given the knowledge and pain that we know can arise through being caught up in an episode.
We start to work as hard as the CG does in plotting and planning their gambling. We try to plan for every eventuality, feeling the need to try and counter or avoid every episode and it’s impact – we work as hard but in a different way. Our life is consumed by the impact of the addiction.
Possibly most of the scenarios you envisage may not happen but in all this brain activity you can become totally burnt out and exhausted – the situation will not change because you have worn yourself out over thinking it.
The only persons actions that you can change are yours and no amount of thinking about his possible will change them – what will be will be.
It is only when we look at how we are dealing with something and see what we can change about ourselves that change is possible – it starts from within.
You cannot make his choices but you can control your own and your own thoughts, how much time you spend worrying about what he may do next is down to you, how much time you spend doing something nice and more constructive is down to you etc
Don’t worry about how you communicate or what he makes out of it you can’t be responsible for the way it is interpreted or the subsequent choices he makes, there’s no point worrying yourself to bits over whether you have got it right or not – so what if you haven’t ! you are a human being, we make mistakes
For what it’s worth M you are being way too hard on yourself, give yourself a break now and again,
Jenny
I used to feel uncomfortable about giving my ex partner money to help him through or out of his dire circumstances, but yet on many occaisions I still did it. I think my uncomfortable feelings arose out of the fact that deep down I knew that the money would be used for gambling but at the same not believing the depths or levels of manipulation at play. After all who really wants to believe that someone whom we love and professes to love us is so capable of such elaborate lies and conning us in such a way that indicates the complete opposite – let alone admit it, we too are just as capable of being in denial.
I am with Monique in the sense that it is surprising how many people with this addiction manage to get by one way or another and it is us who fear that they will be starving etc etc I remember worrying about mine for a few months during a separation and under a bombardment of requests for money only to see him and to my surprise he’d put on a fair bit of weight and was far from the starving waif I had imagined him to be, probably because he’d moved in with another women in that time – which he had forgotten to mention in passing conversation !!
The only way to be sure we have not enabled is not to hand over any cash for anything to someone who is gambling, even if you are paying other people back for providing him with food etc it is still a form of enabling – he needs to run out of options before he will consider the need to change.
It is difficult when so much advice is thrown in a negative way, but keeping a distance from the addiction and concentrating on you seems like quite a good idea to me right now
Jenny
My ex partner is a CG. I too experienced much of what you describe with various disappearing acts and they usually turned out just as Twilight describes, hiding from the collateral damage or going on a spree. During this separation it would not be at all surprising if an elaborate tale is being dreamed up which may then include trying to dump a load of guilt on to you.
I think where love is concerned it is difficult to see the wood through the trees whilst it is covered in the smoke screen of the addiction, if love is there it is hard to detect through the stream of behaviour that would very much give you doubt as to whether it existed – this does not mean that it does not exist but over powered by the addiction which currently the need to gamble is his priority.
If it was me (with much hindsight) I would use this time wisely and learn as much as you can about the addiction and gain the support for yourself. There is little point wondering about what he is up to as you probably already know the answer.
I think the others could well be right, I too suspect he will show himself again ( after finishing in his own mind a shortened version of the Guinness book of excuses!) and you need to be strong for if / when this time comes, so its time to start focusing on what is right and good for you and what you want your own future to be,
It seems a bit contrary as do most things concerning this addiction but expect the unexpected and also gain the knowledge that the unexpected also becomes very predictable with time.
I would think very carefully about what your boundaries will be – should he return
Jenny
It must be very frustrating, I’m not sure why there is a misunderstanding of what is a consistent arrangement unless of course it is a deliberate misunderstanding.
You’ve tried your best, you can’t make him be reasonable, perhaps e-mail is one worth trying as at least then you will have a record of all of this in the event that you need it in the future.
Having said that often the written word is more easily wrongly interpreted
I think there’s a time when you have to accept that you have done all you can, as long as you get on with your life and it doesn’t dictate plans for you and your daughter I fail to see what else you can do which will not leave you dancing to his tune
Jenny
Yes, the piece of advice I was given was very good advice and I’m glad you too found it useful. I think as I said to you in my last reply, sometimes it takes a very long time for our efforts to come to fruition and at times, during the process it is easier to wonder if we should not in fact tell a lie to conceal the ugly truth or soften the blow – especially when speaking to the young children that we so want to protect.
However as they grow up and discover the “ugly” truth and then have it compounded by the fact that we too lied (all be it for the right reasons) then how can we be trusted either or comment upon the lies of another ?
My ex convinced my children for years that he didn’t have any issues, telling them lie after lie, many of which involved blaming me. It was tough, very tough as I always seemed to be the offender for years.
As they get older Michelle, they see it all for themselves and they make their own minds up. My ex frequently pretends to be in meetings etc when we all know he’s getting hammered somewhere, he lies to the kids in the same way as he lies to himself. My answer to them in the past when they have asked why all this is and why does he lie, has not been to slate him but to say something like – alcohol is his priority right now and that is not personal to you although I understand that you may feel that it is . I could have said – oh he must have finished his meeting early !!!
But what would that have made me? I think its how these things are delivered, done with support and without spite but open and honest.
Its tough to take but it is the truth and often the best support is being able to say what someone doesn’t want to here but needs to. The addiction to gamble thrives on lies and secrecy, going along with it is a form of enablement in that it allows its owner to continue without consequence.
Its hard M but as I say children eventually see it themselves but in telling them the truth – they can ask questions and they in turn can learn to deal effectively and protect themselves as they get older.
They can learn that it is not about them
Jenny
I guess addiction isn’t called a family illness for no reason, it certainly has the knack of affecting everyone involved regardless of their age etc.
Considering you don’t feel very well equipped to support your daughter – I feel you are doing a fantastic job. There is no easy answer in my opinion and unfortunately the benefits of your support to your daughter may take a long time to show themselves, years even.
My own sons are still very affected by their fathers alcoholism, different addiction I know but the impact is similar and so is the unreliability. I struggled to support them for years and often felt so helpless or like you, feeling like I wasn’t the best person to support them or feeling badly equipped and at times feeling like my own head was barely above water. They were extremely challenging at times and I lost count of the amount of meetings I had and of the amount of services that I contacted who were apparently there to help (the so called experts !) in reality it was all an added pressure and with hindsight made matters worse but that was my experience.
It took several years for them to deal with him in the way that they do now – and also several years of me passing on my learning from this site in little bite size pieces. They no longer try to understand the why why why of it all and they no longer dance to his tune – they have learned to protect themselves, they know when to walk away . They know it is not about them and they know they cannot make his choices.
None the less it still hurts them, they would still rather it be different – they no longer shoulder the responsibility, they are no longer the parent in the relaitionship.
They also make very short shrift of their fathers antics and I would not like to be on the receiving end of some of their cringe worthy comments towards him !
I thought the day would never come when all the words fell into place, but it has – it just takes time.
You are doing everything you can to soften the blow for your daughter and you can do no more. Don’t be so hard on yourself Michelle – give yourself a break now and again.
You will hear a lot about the importance of gaining knowledge and looking after you and it seems a bit of a strange concept and at times one that doesn’t do the “problem” justice – but its true.
I am a firm believer based on my past experiences that if I truly look after me then the rest follows on, the knowledge I have gained on this site, is knowledge that I have been able to pass on to my children, the same knowledge that you are learning and in turn can pass on when the moments are right.
The most important thing is that you are happy and stable and that the channels of communication between you and your daughter remain open and honest – this makes you by far the best person to support her. It’s difficult unfortunately when supporting someone properly can mean telling some painful truths and accepting that we cannot always make it right.
Boundaries are important but I think they also tend to follow quite naturally in some ways as you gain in strength and more importantly your self esteem begins to increase. One day you will look back and wonder – who was that person who put up with all of this !!
You are your own worst critic, you’ve had a rough ride and it’s little wonder that you question yourself, be kind to yourself
Jenny x
I must say I agree with most of the replies you have already had so don’t feel I can add to them but more echo what they are saying.
What is there to say to what has happened which you haven’t said a thousand times before ? If you say it you will no doubt get the same response as you’ve also had a thousand times before ! perhaps a simple – thanks for letting me know would suffice ? then go on and enjoy a good gambling free holiday with your daughter.
If you fear such a response from him if you don’t offer to take him or pay his way (which I agree is some what predictable) then what does that say about him, to me it says it’s about continuing enablement and manipulation.
As for the visits, I don’t see his reliability improving until steps are taken by him to control his gambling problem. It’s hard on children in any split and all we can do is pour our efforts in to clearing up the mess and concentrating on them, not on the absent person with problems.
You cannot keep taking the responsibility for his bad choices and as long as you do – he never will. He’s calling the shots and he is getting in the way of you going forward with your own life – sorry to sound a little blunt !
If you make arrangements and he lets you down and your daughter down then that is his responsibility – you cannot make it right, it is a hazard of the trade (so to speak). Putting life on hold is a waste and I’m sure your daughter feels your frustration how ever hard you may try to conceal it.
He needs the rug pulling out from underneath him in my opinion. Sometimes a legal route is helpful but it can do no more than you can, it sets out boundaries and perameters for contact etc but they can just as easily be bent if people don’t adhere to them eg, if you give in and in my experience they can often be inflammatory to the situation.
You are getting stronger Michele and I think you beat yourself up way too much than is good for you. Set your own standards and live up to them don’t live down to his expectations
Jenny
if I am reading your post correctly, you paid the balance of the holiday without it being in mind that he would be going and without an agreement with him at that stage to pay – that is not enabling. Or if you paid it in that knowledge it would have been.
Enabling would have been if you had agreed to pay the balance knowing that he would be going, also knowing that the reason he had not got the money to pay was because he had or intended to gamble. You had other options in mind like taking a friend or going alone, not just him ?
My concern for you is that the boundaries of your separation remain unclear and very blurry, I may be wrong but your posts (reading between the lines) seem to indicate that you are hanging on to this relaitionship not just for the sake of your daughter having contact but in the hope there will be a reconciliation and a gambling free one – I may be wrong.
It will be difficult to sustain this type of split and its one which I feel will not allow you to escape the manipulation of addiction. I can also see that in the long term it will only add to confusion and unnecessary further heartache for your daughter.If it is over, then it is over. Arrangements are in place for him to have contact with your daughter for example – if he doesn’t show up then that is his problem, if when she is older she no longer wants to have that contact then those are his consequences – let him stew in them, and concentrate on your daughter – unfortunately you cannot save her from him or him from himself but you can soften her blow.
I know this may sound a little harsh and it is not meant that way. In my experience as long as the door remains slightly ajar you will leave yourself open to more and more of these scenarios (I’m sure that will gradually become far more inventive!!) and enable him to get off the hook. There appears to be no hint of a recovery
You will also delay your own ability to go on with your own recovery and get the life for you and your daughter that you so rightly deserve
Jenny
The odd arguments that we suddenly find ourselves in the middle of ie the sauce incidents are very very common. They are often excuses to go and gamble, leaving you feeling in some way – In the wrong, or that you are responsible for the next episode because you upset him.
I cannot begin to tell you what I would have said if I had been criticised for putting his sauce in the wrong place – it would probably have ended in him getting told where the next lot of sauce might end up.
Keep your chin up, you’ll need all your strength to look after you in all of this – and that means letting him deal with his own sauce
Jenny
I think boundaries are a very interesting topic but they should be a reflection of what we are prepared to put up with or tolerate. Whatever they are, they must be lines that other people can’t cross – for any reason.
They are not necessarily always to do with ultimatums but similarly they cannot be stretched or bent.
They do not always have to be major, in fact some small ones which are easy to put in place can have a very big impact.
Like you, I had lots of supportive conversations, frequently to no avail. The times when I was allowed in usually followed a large episode of gambling (similar to your last one) and I would think, this is it, maybe this time etc etc only to find history repeated itself time and time again. I eventually realised that the response I would get just depended on where he was in his cycle, nothing to do with genuine intentions to stop.Funny don’t you think that he listens after a heavy loss, when it crosses his mind he might have pushed you that little bit too far ? It is no game, but it is distinctly possible that he gambles also with your relaitionship.
I also believe any active CG will say anything to keep those that in some way enable the addiction to stay alive. Enablement takes so many forms other than financial ones, its often seems like a very complex subject, one which I certainly struggled with.
An example of enablement could be something like keep allowing these fruitless discussions to take place – it can keep it alive, you get manipulated, lied to and he continues to gamble feeling that he has succeeded in fobbing you off (excuse my harsh description). The point I’m getting at is if the same cycle continues, the end result will always be the same. He has a cycle and so do you, it is changing your own cycle, your own response – that gives a different outcome. Different outcomes are also not necessarily the ones we hope for.
So in theory a different response when he does exactly the same thing on his next pay day could be a very short and swift supportive comment from you like
“I am not interested in hearing about this, but do please come and tell me when you have sort help and I will be happy to support you. Also please let me know if you’d like me to manage your money for you and I will be happy to do so ” and then refuse to have the conversation any further, then carry on as normal. Provide no money, pay off no debt and don’t be fooled into paying for everything else yourself.I am not trying to tell you what to do or what to say, that was just an example which saves you from a lot of the stress of listening to the BS and having another meaningless conversation ! It also doesn’t give a lot to argue about although I have no doubt he’ll try to pick one, don’t fall for it, it feels personal but its yet another tool of the addiction. Leave him to consider his consequences without involving you, you can turn your back on the addiction without turning your back on the person and one thing is certain, the addiction will be confused.
I realise you see cheating as a matter for another forum but I think it is not always a separate issue it can be quite connected – gambling with relaitionships or certainly securing another enabler, maybe if you speak to Velvet in a group she can give you the same insight as she once gave to me on this very subject. Don’t underestimate the power and conniving behaviour behind this addiction.
Who knows what it will take for him to come to the realisation that he wants to stop, leaving him might well at some point be a factor in his decision making process but it may not.
My concern would be more for you should you decide to stay
Keep reading, posting – try not too blow your top, its only going to put you through more upset.
Above all look after yourself
Jenny